Monday, February 2, 2015

What You Don't Know About Tiajin Seagull (Watch)


Seagull is the movement maker and Sea-Gull is the watch manufacturer. That's an interesting distinction. Perhaps watch aficionados might want to take note. Perhaps journalists should also take note, I often see it misused.

Seagull's business model calls for the manufacture of watch movements for third party manufacturers primarily in Europe. For example, Alfex is one of those manufacturers, who claim they use ETA movements. A slight problem exists for Alfex and dozens of manufacturers: ETA doesn't sell to non-affiliated members of Swatch Group, Ltd.

One of Seagull's popular movements, the ST-3600, resembles the ETA 6497-1 and the Unitas 6497. The Seagull ST-3600 is not a clone of the ETA/Unitas movement. It is rather a drop-in replacement. The earliest mention of the ST-3600 on watch forums occurred in 2007. Also mentioned: One of Seagull's primary customers ordered the ST-3600, otherwise it would not exist.

The ST-3600 leaves the Seagull factory without service or oiling. The supplier of the movement holds their customer responsible for oiling and final quality control.

Looking for an official place to purchase a Sea-Gull watch? It might take some sleuthing. Seagull sells its watches to manufacturers who case the movements. Think of Seagull as an ebauche supplier.

Companies like Parnis do not oil or quality control their Seagull movements. If you buy a Parnis, you're buying an unoiled watch. The expected life is two years. With oiling and quality control, Parnis would have to add approximately $80 to the selling price of their watches.

If you buy a Parnis with a Seagull movement and want it to last as long as an ETA/Unitas 6497 movement, be prepared to have a watchmaker oil and time your watch. As an individual expect to spend around $200 for service work.

NOTE: I established this post in February 2015. The material comes from my research conducted since then.

What Managers of Seagull have said about the Swiss

I think that within the next five to ten years, we will have some products that will be at
the same level as the Swiss. There are some areas where we are not yet up to the Swiss. - Wang De Ming, Manager, SeaGull October, 2009

The Swiss are the masters and we are the students. We make no pretensions about competing with Swiss watchmaking. One day, though, we believe that there will be a place for us in the global market. Aries Lee - Deputy General Manager, Seagull  Febuary, 2012

 This is an update as of January, 29, 2016

According to Taobao.com, the Seagull Factory Direct store is located at

https://shop33593671.world.taobao.com/

The caption (translated) at that location follows:

Tianjin Seagull Watch Group Sales Co., Ltd. is the National sole contact for the sale of watches.
Seagull brand watches are produced in the birthplace of China's first watches ----- Tianjin Seagull Watch Group Corporation (formerly Tianjin watch factory)
Seagull brand watches (1955) has a long development history. We've laid down a solid technical foundation.
 
 Honesty. Warm. Considerate service is our marketing objective, along with market development and requirements, we can according to a user requirements custom make watches for enterprises, industry, military units, schools and so forth.
Seagull's factory website is http://www.tjseagull.com

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To be honest, Fossil put Chinese movements on the map and on the right track. Fossil’s initial order of 800,000 SeaGull mechanical movements (total purchase to date is estimated at over 1.2 million and counting) sent a message to the watch world that Chinese movement manufacturers were and would become a force with which to be reckoned.

Europa Star WorldWatchWeb, 28 October 2009

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Located in Tianjin, China, SeaGull is a complete manufacture, in the Swiss sense of the word. SeaGull makes everything, from screws to springs. With 6,000 workers, it’s a huge operation and it has evolved to the point where 80 per cent of SeaGull’s movement production is sold inside the country, to other watch companies, and then exported. “Only 20 per cent of our movements are for watches to be sold inside the country,” says Wang DeMing, Manager, SeaGull.

“I think that within the next five to ten years, we will have some products that will be at
the same level as the Swiss. There are some areas where we are not yet up to the Swiss.

“We have a different mindset,” Wang admits. “We have a long history. The decoration and attention to detail is where we fall down against the Swiss. Changing people’s attitudes is the hardest thing, we have to work on this, because people know Sea Gull as a low cost manufacturer.”

This year at the Hong Kong Watch and Clock Fair, SeaGull introduced a new tourbillion with a sapphire bridge, as well as a new minute repeater with perpetual calendar. The watches looked good – the quality and attention to detail were not up to Swiss watch industry standards, but they were pretty good, at incredible, definitely non-Swiss prices.

Europa Star WorldWatchWeb, 28 October 2009

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Visited any standalone websites selling Sea-Gull watches? It might surprise you to discover most, if not all, belong to individuals, not the company, Seagull.

On the information tab of one of the individual websites, the owner writes:

"SEA-GULL is the in-house brand of Tianjin Sea Gull Watch Manufacturing Group, China’s top watch maker..."

Confusing? Sea-Gull is a watch brand owned by a company.

You may have to ask the questions, from whom am I buying this watch and who honors the warranty?

The screenshots below came from a website in America and Europe.


The European website belongs to DallTech ApS - a company listed at an address in a residence in Denmark. On the website under "Retailers", you can see the following quote (as of January 29, 2016)

SEA-GULL mechanical watches are currently not available in Europe. We expect to make a market introduction in autumn 2012. More information about local European authorized retailers will be provided on this website. Thank you for your patience.

That's interesting. Another company offers watches in Europe - seagullwatchstore.com. The registrant is Guiyue Feng. The title of the website is:

 SEAGULL WATCH - USA Canada Europe, UK France Germany, Russia, Spain, Australia, Singapore and Hong Kong Free.
You might feel a little more confident with this vendor when you read his shipping policy page. Click here. 

The American website belongs to an individual. The public record of the registrant is listed at the bottom of this page.


Previous research notes you might find of interest:

  • According to this post: Seagull movements, when adequately adjusted, will match the performance specified by COSC, (the Official Swiss Chronometer Testing Institute) for chronometers.
  • (ST19): Fabrique d’Ébauches Venus S.A. founded in 1923, sold its tooling for the Venus 175 chronograph movements to Seagull in 1958. Venus, SA merged with Valjoux and then ETA. The Venus 175 design is the basic design of the ETA 7750. 
  • Tianjin Zhongou Watch Group Co., Ltd. owns the Seagull Trademark. The company abandoned original trademark filed December 01, 2005 on  January 1, 2007.
  • Tianjin Zhongou Watch Group Co., Ltd. is the company listed by China Markets Yearbook.
  • Seagull is not the largest watch movement manufacturer in China. Zhuhai New Pearl Watchmaking Co. Ltd. (Swatch Group Ltd.) is the largest.
  • 80 per cent of Seagull's movement production is sold to exporters - watch companies that case and finish watches in China for companies in Germany, France, Switzerland, Russia, the US and others.
  • 20 per cent of Seagull's movements production is used in domestic Chinese brands - sold only in China.
  • Seagull makes everything, from screws to springs.
  • Seagull parts become "Swiss Made" when they are sold to and assembled by companies in Switzerland.
  • Fossil sent a message to the watch world that Chinese movement manufacturers were ready when Fossil ordered of 800,000 Seagull mechanical movements in 2009.
  • Timex T2M518 with a Seagull movement retails for $139 and the Sea-Gull Watch M171 retails for $299.
  • On February 6, 2006, Seagull launched ten limited edition platinum quarter-repeater watches and 40 limited edition rose gold quarter-repeater watches.



Timex with 2505 Movement
Sea-Gull with 2505 Movement




Sea-Gull 2505


Sea-Gull Movement Descriptions designed for US Market


2100 ST21 Auto, 2100/ETA 2836
2241 ST22 A pair of auto ST6 on same plate
2590 ST2590 An auto, perpetual calendar with moonphase
2800 ST28 Movement with a mechanical alarm
9000 ST90 A mechanical repeater
TY36XX ST36 A mechanical movement replaces Unitas 6497/98 and ETA 2801

The "TY" to "ST" Equivalents:

TY6XXX = ST6 (mechanical/auto, ladies sized movement)
TY2130 = ST21 (auto, 2130/ETA 2824) (incorrectly referred to as ST24)
TY25XX = ST25 (auto, regular & open heart)
TY2661 = ST18 (auto, 1812/ETA 2892) (incorrectly referred to as ST26)
TY27XX = ST17 (mechanical/auto, non-hacking, upgrade of ST16)
TY28XX = ST16 (mechanical/auto, many variants including skeleton)
TY29XX = ST19 (mechanical/auto chronograph)
TY3100 = ST31 (mechanical, 3 dials inline w/ open heart)
TY36XX = ST36 (mechanical, Unitas 6497/98)
TY80XX = ST80 (mechanical/auto, carousel tourbillon, carousel skeleton tourbillon)
TY82XX = ST82 (mechanical/auto, flying/bridged tourbillon)
TY8080 = ST80 (mechanical, dual carousel tourbillon)
TY84XX = ST84 (mechanical carousel tourbillon, ladies)
TY9000 = ST90 (mechanical quarter repeater)
TY9100 = ST91 (mechanical minute repeater)


Catalog from a Seagull Store
SEAGULL-Bauhaus Classic Sea-Gull Automatic Wrist Watch ST17 Bauhaus Edition
D813.581 New SEA-GULL D813.581 Chinese Military Watch Since 1964 / Limited Edition Chinese PLA Type-99 Tank Commander
M189s New Sea-Gull M189S Double GMT Automatic Watch / power reserve indicator+retrograde date
M198S New SEA-GULL M198S Automatic Mechanical Watch
218.907 SEA-GULL 218.907 Rose Gold Tourbillon Watch / Power Reserve Indicator + Month Date + 24Hours Indicator + Moonphase
719.376 SEA-GULL 719.376 Forever Love Women's Skeleton Automatic Mechanical Watch
816.362 SEA-GULL 816.362 Classic Automatic Mechanical Watch
816.364 SEA-GULL 816.364 Classic Business Men's Automatic Mechanical Watch
818.907 Sea-Gull 818.907 Tourbillon Watch / Power Reserve Indicator + Month Date + 24Hours Indicator +Moonphase
818.924 SEA-GULL 818.924 Classic Men's Tourbillon Watch / Retrograde Month Date + Week Day
818.927 Sea-Gull 818.927 Tourbillon Watch / Power Reserve Indicator + Month Date + 24Hours Indicator +Moonphase
819.316 SEA-GULL 819.316 Automatic Mehanical Watch / Retrograde Month Date + Week Day + Flywheel / Classic M171S Upgrade
819.317 Sea-Gull 819.317 Automatic Mechanical Watch / Flywheel+Month date+Power Reserve Indicator/Classic M172S upgrade model
819.332 SEA-GULL 819.332 Ultra-Thin Automatic Mechanical Watch
819.368 SEA-GULL 819.368 Classic Automatic Mechanical Watch
D2869S SEA-GULL D2869S Multi-Function Automatic Mechanical Watch
D2869SG SEA-GULL D2869SG Rose Gold Multi-Function Automatic Mechanical Watch
D304 Sea-Gull D304 China 1st Air Force Military Chronograph Watch limited edition 1963 Reissue
M163S Sea-Gull M163S Automatic Watch / Flywheel+Month date+Power Reserve Indicator
M170S-Gold-Rotor SEA-GULL M170S Automatic Watch / Month Date + Week Day + Flywheel + Gold Rotor
M170S-Sliver-Rotor SEA-GULL M170S Automatic Watch / Month Date + Week Day + Flywheel + Sliver Rotor
M171S-Gold-Rotor SEA-GULL M171S Automatic Watch / Retrograde Month Date + Week Day + Flywheel + Gold Rotor
M171S-Sliver-Rotor SEA-GULL M171S Automatic Watch / Retrograde Month Date + Week Day + Flywheel + Sliver Rotor
M172S-Gold-Rotor Sea-Gull M172S Automatic Watch / Flywheel+Month date+Power Reserve Indicator+Gold Rotor
M172S-Sliver-Rotor Sea-Gull M172S Automatic Watch / Flywheel+Month date+Power Reserve Indicator+Sliver Rotor
M182SGK-Blue-Hands SEA-GULL M182SGK Rose Gold Skeleton Automatic Mechanical Watch /Blue Hand
M182SGK-Red-Hands SEA-GULL M182SGK Rose Gold Skeleton Automatic Mechanical Women Watch /Red Hand
M182SK-Black-Hands SEA-GULL M182SK Automatic Mechanical Watch / Silver Skeleton Black Hands
M182SK-Black-Hands-Pink-Band SEA-GULL M182SK Automatic Mechanical Watch / Silver Skeleton Black Hands Pink Band
M182SK-Blue-Hands SEA-GULL M182SK Automatic Mechanical Watch / Silver Skeleton Blue Hands
M182SK-RED-HANDS SEA-GULL M182SK Automatic Mechanical Women Watch / Silver Skeleton Red Hands Red Band
M186S-Arabic-Digit SEA-GULL M186S Classic Men's Automatic Mechanical Watch - Arabic Digit Dial
M186S-Bar-Nail SEA-GULL M186S Classic Men's Automatic Mechanical Watch - Bar Nail Dial
M186S--Roman-Numeral SEA-GULL M186S Classic Men's Automatic Mechanical Watch - Roman Numeral
M190S SEA-GULL M190S Chronograph Watch
M190SK SEA-GULL M190SK Skeleton Mechanical Chronograph Watch
M193S SEA-GULL M193S Chronograph Watch / Chronpgraph+Power Reserve Indicator
M199S SEA-GULL M199S Classic Moonphase Mechanical Chronograph Watch / Chronpgraph+Moonphase+Month Date
M199S-Rose-Gold SEA-GULL M199S Rose Gold Moonphase Mechanical Chronograph Watch / Chronpgraph+Moonphase+Month Date
M201S SEA-GULL M201S Ultra-Thin Automatic Mechanical Watch
M201SG SEA-GULL M201SG Rose Gold Ultra-Thin Automatic Mechanical Watch
M222S-1 SEA-GULL M222S Hand-winding Mechanical Watch
M222S-2 SEA-GULL M222S Hand-winding Mechanical Watch
M222SK SEA-GULL M222SK Classic Skeleton Hand-winding Mechanical Watch
M308S SEA-GULL M308S Classic Moonphase Automatic Mechanical Men's Watch


History 1955 - 2007

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From this site:


Sea-Gull, which has been bestowed such titles as China Top Brand, China Well-know Trademark, and China Time-honored Brand, is backed by a history of over 50 years, more than half a century's technological expertise, and the perennial nature of China's culture.



Tianjin Seagull Watch Co.,Ltd., as the biggest watch industry group in China, has accumulated 53 years of manufacture experience in watchmaking, also takes powerful technical development strength for CNC, precision equipments manufacture and large numbers of precision spare parts machining. The Group has so far developed CNC automatic lathes and many different kinds of precision processing machines for manufacturing precision instruments and spare parts. The Group holds advanced technique and instruments, and has been honored the as a top 500 business and first-class enterprise in China. There own over 2000 pieces of world-advanced machining equipment and testing instruments, including 30% of these machines from overseas. Also, they produce a range of high-end, mid-range, and low-end multifunctional automatic mechanical watches and nearly 100 kinds of products, such as tourbillon, quarter repeater and minute repeater.



Seagull has been honored as grade-A measurement enterprise in China, with completed Quality Assurance System and reliable testing capability, and has acquired the ISO 9001.2000 certificate.
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Domain Name: USSEAGULL.COMRegistry Domain ID: 1510412498_DOMAIN_COM-VRSNRegistrar WHOIS Server: whois.tucows.comRegistrar URL: http://tucowsdomains.comUpdated Date: 2015-06-22T21:29:05ZCreation Date: 2008-07-26T13:53:45ZRegistrar Registration Expiration Date: 2018-07-26T13:53:45ZRegistrar: TUCOWS, INC.Registrar IANA ID: 69Registrar Abuse Contact Email: Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +1.4165350123Reseller: Ecommerce, LLCDomain Status: clientTransferProhibitedDomain Status: clientUpdateProhibitedRegistry Registrant ID: Registrant Name: kevin maRegistrant Organization: kevin maRegistrant Street: 9668 Milliken Ave #104-168Registrant City: rancho cucamongaRegistrant State/Province: CARegistrant Postal Code: 91730Registrant Country: US
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So much information about Sea-Gull exists in scattered places. We'll keep looking for more.



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